"djmt1" (djmt1)
06/11/2016 at 12:31 • Filed to: None
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"djmt1" (djmt1)
06/11/2016 at 12:31 • Filed to: None | 0
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Have you guys made your mind up yet? I haven’t mainly because accurate facts and figures are a pain to find and both sides are lying through their teeth to an almost farcical extent.
ttyymmnn
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 12:41 |
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BBC News is one of my daily reads, and I’ve been following the Brexit issue to a certain degree, but not enough to make an informed decision. On one hand, I have trouble believing that the rising tide of isolationism is a good thing. On the other, European economies are more closely tied to other countries than is the American economy, so it’s hard to make a comparison.
KirkyV
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 12:50 |
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I’m going stay. Status-quo, I really hate UKIP, I appreciate both the consumer and human rights protections, and it’s nice to think that I could just up and move to France if the idea took me. I also think globalisation is inevitable, regardless of whether it’s actually a good thing or not, and if we leave now we’ll just have to rejoin later on less advantageous terms. I’ve got a few other reasons, but those are probably the main ones.
In addition, I’m reasonably sure that leaving the EU’ll trigger another Scottish Independence referendum in a few years, and this time I doubt they’ll stick around, since Scotland is generally much more pro-EU than England.
Oh, and finally, I don’t actually claim to be an expert on any of this - I doubt most of us are - which is why I find the whole referendum a tad dubious, honestly. I’m definitely not equipped to make an informed decision on this matter, and neither - I suspect - is most of the electorate.
That’s partly the fault of the utterly shite campaigns being run on both sides, but the main problem is simply that this is such a complex issue - an issue that, so far as I’m concerned, is primarily economic, since I have about as much patience for the ‘take Britain back!’ arguments as I do for nationalism in general - that no amount of campaigning is going to equip the massed public to make the decision. This is precisely the sort of matter we elect representative governments to decide for us—or, at least, that’s what I think.
Leon711
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 12:51 |
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Yes. In.
The arguments for leaving that I hear from people I know don’t stack up.
“We need to take our country back” from what the 5% who aren’t British?
Immigration works both ways too, think of how many oldies retire to Spain. I’m allowed free movement to any EU country, I can work in any EU country. The only downside to the free immigration in my eyes is that our school system doesn’t teach languages well enough, I work with a guy from Spain who is fluent in 4 languages and can have a conversation in a few more, yet here I am learning Spanish off my own back because the 3 years or so at school divided between French and Spanish weren’t taught well.
Also in terms of employment it keeps me in a job because it enables my company to do business easier within Europe.
I noticed today that James Dyson is in support of leaving, I thought that it was odd, but then I remembered he shipped all of the manufacturing jobs out to the far east a while ago so he has no vested interest, it’s important for British jobs and the economy to remain, if we go through another recession, it’ll be another 5-10 years before I’ll be able to afford to move out of the family home.
Another point is that with the exception of BoJo none of the lead leave campaigners are successful politicians and in the case of Farage, a liar who said he would leave if he didn’t get a seat at the general.
Anyway some facts
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politi…
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djmt1
> ttyymmnn
06/11/2016 at 12:51 |
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Nobody is informed going by this survey. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politi…
It’s such a mess right now.
Svend
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 12:54 |
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I was firmly in the leave camp but now only leaning into it.
For me the issue is to a degree tighter border control and immigration partly due to the pressure on our infrastructure (NHS, police, roads, etc...) but more about our laws being consistently trampled on (such as the cost and years it took to extradite Abu Hamza out of the U.K. (now is a U.S. jail, thank you) to the U.S. because the U.S. has the death penalty and the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) said it infringes his human rights.
I know we pay paid £13billion (£18billion before our rebate) in 2015 which accounted for 0.37% of our expenditure. and of which £4billion was given back in the form of subsidies but that is still £9billion that we so really need to sort our own issues out with. We pay 0.67% of our expenditure in overseas aid which I’m okay with.
So I’m just leaning in at present. I see the main issue being the ECHR. We should have our own human rights bill and U.K. law being the final ruling on U.K. citizens within U.K. borders.
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djmt1
> Leon711
06/11/2016 at 12:55 |
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That article is actually what prompted me to make this post. To be blunt, I don’t like the EU in its current implementation but I don’t trust the leave campaign to have a plan for a Brexit future. Their whole campaign reminds of the SNP and how their plan for independence was built on dreams and hope as opposed to facts and figures.
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djmt1
> KirkyV
06/11/2016 at 13:02 |
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Our they safeguarding out rights though? How does consumer and worker protection in the UK rank against other EU members. Are we doing the bare minimum required or setting our own rates. Things like this, I can never get an answer for and therefore that argument has always irked me.
Steve in Manhattan
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 13:05 |
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I have no dog in this fight (because ‘Murrican!) and I hate to agree with Cameron, who seems nearly as bad as Thatcher, but staying in the EU at this point seems the better choice.
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djmt1
> Svend
06/11/2016 at 13:07 |
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Is there anyone you trust to lead the UK in a Brexit world? That’s always been the stumbling block for myself as a resident of London, I want the Americans to take Johnson back to New York somehow as him as Prime Minster is a future I shudder to think about.
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KirkyV
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 13:16 |
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Well, here’s a few consumer protections that are derived from EU, rather than UK law:
http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/…
It is indeed difficult to find a summation that actually breaks down the totality of what’s derived from UK law versus EU law when it comes to consumer rights protections, which is another reason why this whole referendum feels kinda stinky to me.
The human rights debate is actually quite a bit easier to get a read on, what with how much press the government’s struggles with European human rights directives have gotten. The issue there comes to down to ideological alignment, primarily—I consider the weakening of human rights protections in this country, with a toothless ‘UK Charter of Human Rights’, or whatever May wants to call it, a major argument against leaving the EU, while plenty of other people are actually in favour of it.
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djmt1
> Steve in Manhattan
06/11/2016 at 13:17 |
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Cameron has been unsettling me this whole campaign. He shouldn’t be in the remain camp but he is and I’m not sure why.
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djmt1
> KirkyV
06/11/2016 at 13:24 |
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I can understand why people are in favour of it. You only have to look at the debacle with Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada and how it cost to deal with them to see why people see the EU as interfering.
This leaves me caught in two minds as I do respect the EU’s stance on human rights but like a lot of EU policies they don’t always work everywhere and every time and when they don’t they don’t the costs are always high.
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KirkyV
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 13:27 |
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I suppose I think strong human rights protections are worth paying for, ultimately. I’d rather inefficiency than toothless legislation that the government can wave aside when it’s convenient.
Ultimately, you’re never going to find a perfect compromise on stuff like that, so you kinda have to just pick which is more important to you, personally.
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Leon711
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 14:12 |
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There’s problems, but we can work through them it’s like a problematic relationship. If you can work through them you’ll be happy.
You are right though there is no plan if we leave.
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Svend
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 14:18 |
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Didn’t Boris give up his U.S. citizenship as an ‘accident of birth’? (seriously look it up, being born in the U.S. and then returning say back to the U.K. still means in later life you are subject to U.S. taxes over a certain threshold and you can’t just give up U.S. citizenship if you’ve never lived there but have to give five years of bank and tax statements. Mental).
To be honest I trust Cameron more than I do the rest. labour see the public as a cash cow with an open credit card and spend spend spend, the conservatives have tried bringing our debt into line but have had a few spanners in the works with Euro crisis's from Ireland, Greece, etc... not to mention further war commitments in the middle east.
BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 14:19 |
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Yeah i’ve already voted.
For me it seems like a massive financial risk, just after we’ve managed to pull ourselves out of the 2008 financial crisis and we want to risk it all for what gain?
It might work (i don’t think it will) but why risk it?
Also, it might work internally but if everyone else around us thinks it’s a terrible plan they’ll pull their investments and our economy will fuck up anyway.
That’s all without even touching trying to renegotiate trade deals with the EU we’ve just fucked off, and the rest of the world with a teeny-tiny buying population to barter with. Why would people give us favourable trade deals when we're small fry population-wise?
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Steve in Manhattan
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 14:23 |
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I usually only hear about Cameron when he say or does something markedly stupid - as you can imagine, the 3 ring circus over here sucks all the oxygen out of the room. Is there any chance Cameron’s government will fall in the near term?
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Leon711
> Svend
06/11/2016 at 14:25 |
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The ECHR is unrelated to the EU and based in Switzerland, which isn’t a member state. Its been misrepresented everywhere and I only found out when a lawyer friend told me. The referendum has no effect on ECHR, that’s a fight for another day.
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Leon711
> Svend
06/11/2016 at 14:27 |
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Do you feel that after coalition broke up that the lib dems prevented some of the batshit from going through under their watch?
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Leon711
> ttyymmnn
06/11/2016 at 14:33 |
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Because of our independent currency we aren’t affected by what goes on with the Euro which is a plus, and it’s a strong currency. My personal circumstances are that I work for a British subsidiary of an American company and we buy a lot of our products (raw materials, finished products etc.) And if we left if would be more expensive to continue to operate within Europe, we’d have a difficult time keeping hold of some of our best staff, and risk being closed by the main company because we are only a small part of their global picture. Plus who wants a contracting economy?
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djmt1
> Steve in Manhattan
06/11/2016 at 14:37 |
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I doubt it. There is no credible opposition with the way our elections work.
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Svend
> Leon711
06/11/2016 at 14:38 |
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Exactly. My issue is more with the ECHR than the E.U. but as you point out most people don’t know the difference between the E.U., E.E.A., Euro, Europe, etc...
I believe Teressa may was pushing more for leaving the ECHR than the E.U.
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Svend
> Leon711
06/11/2016 at 14:41 |
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I think the lib dems did a bit to reign in the conservatives, but later went militant because they weren’t getting their way and so started blocking stuff that they even agreed with for the sake of sticking it to the conservatives.
Basically the conservatives are the best of a bad lot, marginally.
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djmt1
> Svend
06/11/2016 at 14:46 |
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Yeah he recently gave it up, so no President Boris unfortunately.
I have no political party at the moment as I was a strong supporter of the the Lib Dems but they had the opportunity to prevent my generation from being properly buggered and did nothing so I defected to Labour but my word are they idiots sometimes. Plus Corbyn is an utter joke and is so out of touch it hurts.
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Leon711
> Svend
06/11/2016 at 14:48 |
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Yeah I mean UKIP are led by a liar who doesn’t know shit. Labour beleve money grows on trees, the Lib Dems I align most with are too small now to do anything and are yet to have a leader I’d call a prime minister. Greens are just a bit too hard line eco to be taken seriously in any capacity, I witnessed (from just outside so not directly affected) them fuck up Brighton and Hove. SNP, Plaid Cymru, DUP and English Democrats are all nationalists and whilst they get votes they have pigeonholed themselves into being one trick ponies.
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Svend
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 14:55 |
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Corbyn is anti monachy, sided with the IRA, wants to hand over Northern Ireland to the Republic regardless of what they say and have a Northern Ireland style shared government with the Falkland Islands and Argentina.
Not to mention other crap.
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djmt1
> Leon711
06/11/2016 at 14:59 |
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The pound is definitely affected by the Euro given our trade deficit with the EU and to be blunt the pound isn’t in the best health at the moment but then again that’s entirely down to Brexit speculation.
Plus I find it interesting you speak of the independence of the currency and how it’s a plus but could that not be extended to the economy as a whole?
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Steve in Manhattan
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 15:00 |
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Whither Red Ken ....
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Leon711
> djmt1
06/11/2016 at 15:07 |
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You are right it could, but in the event of leaving it could be difficult to get the deals going first, way down the line, could it eventually be better? Who knows. At the moment we do more trade with the Netherlands than with China, we won’t lose all EU trade but we will lose some. But hey I’m not an economist.